Friday, January 18, 2008

From Christian to Atheist


It is with some trepidation that I write this but I need to come clean with a number of friends around the world and writing it down seems to be the best way of structuring an explanation of where I find myself.

My journey out of faith

First of all I didn't wake up one day and decide "hey I am going to become an atheist". In fact I don't think its possible to become an atheist as atheism is an absence of belief in God rather than a positive belief in something.

It happened like this. One day I realised that I no longer believed that there was a need for a God in order for me to exist or life itself to be worthwhile. The main question that I could not answer from my Christian beliefs was "who created God?". If biological life needed something to create it then God needs a creator. One answer is that God has always just existed, but you could say that about life itself. Maybe life has always existed? We know that’s not true because of evolution and if the bible is wrong about the origins of life (which it clearly is - animals did not appear as fixed species and human history is longer than the 6000 years the bible suggests) then it must be wrong about all sorts of other things.

If Adam did not exist and did not sin then there is no need for a second Adam. Indeed, suppose that atonement was necessary, how could the death of one man actually make God change his mind, especially if the man dying was actually God? It all started to unravel when I looked at the logic of the whole scheme of Christianity.

I did try to discuss these issues with various Christian friends but the universal advice I got was variations on "just believe". In other words, just pretend to believe, agree to all the creeds, but don't really believe and you will be OK when you die, just in case you were wrong. This did not make any sense to me. It had no integrity to it so I had to accept that I did not believe any more and just tell people the truth.

This seemed to be an honest approach, but it was quite challenging for them. Generally their response was to argue in favour of God's existence either from creation or by trying to prove the historical accuracy of scripture (on the basis that if it is right about history then it must be right about theology). It was rather like being cross examined by an advocate who also did not know the real truth but knew what the law said.

I also looked at the standard proofs for the existence of God from Thomas Aquinas and St Anselm, but I did not find these either helpful or convincing.

One brave person

One brave person called Ross (thank you Ross) from a church I attended years ago did engage with me by email which was very kind of him. This included the big question of how anything can exist (creation out of nothing).

I replied:

If God created everything out of nothing, where was he when he did it?

Thats the problem with using that argument, it actually pushes any possibility of God out of the picture.
Matter can not be created or destroyed it just exists and changes.
Science uses superstring theory in physics to suggest that the universe expands and contracts so there is no need for a single big bang event
or something being created from nothing.

In fact Jewish thinking is that God created himself in Genesis chapter one.
Early Christians separated the idea of the creator God from the God, whom they were praying to, which is one reason why Jesus gets assumed to be pre existent and doing the creative acts in Genesis 1.
This allowed the father to be higher than the son/creator.

This also raises the argument in favour of God from complexity.
i.e. something as complex as our world must have been created by something greater than itself.
The same can be said about God.
There must have been something bigger than God that created him, yet if thats true then God is not God.
Therefore the argument from complexity is also self defeating.

This is the problem. There is just not enough evidence for the existence of God or for the need for a God in order for things to be the way they are.

Some reactions from my other Christian friends

These have ranged from "I always knew there was something not quite right about you" to quotations from the parable of the sower about some seed falling on stony ground where it withers and dies, as if this is an occupational hazard and not something they have to be too concerned about. I have also had a large number say "I will be praying for you". I wonder how long they will pray for me?

The overall results and effects

First the negatives:

  • I have no contact with any of my friends from church. No one from the church has contacted me since I said I was stopping going. Its like I have stopped existing. It turned out they were all conditional friendships. This has been very painful. People who I thought cared about me as a person turned out to only care about me as a soul that could be won or lost and put on the trophy shelf (in some ways I do feel like a bit of a fool thinking they were my friends, I imagine I am a bit like someone coming out of a cult, I have a bereavement process to go through). To be fair I have not tried to contact them but a couple of them have walked to the other side of the street to avoid me so I have been a bit scared to contact them.
  • There is a certain embarassment factor involved in how other people see me. I was a person of faith for so long that they would expect me losing it to have wrecked my life, but I have not really changed.

Now the positives:

  • I now realise that only I can help myself. There are no quick fixes or miracle cures. If I am going to make my life better then I have to do it myself. I am no longer bound by the guilt of having to seek professional help rather than prayer or miracle cures so I am going into inter personal therapy with a psychologist and making various changes to my life to improve my wellbeing.

  • I have developed a great interest in nature. As a Christian I could climb a mountain look down and say "how great is the world that God has created", but I had little interest in the workings of the natural world. Since my deconversion I have started to get great pleasure from small things like watching spiders build webs and birds feeding in the garden. Its as if I can see my place in the world in context for the first time and I enjoy watching all the other living things.

  • I can see a point to living. I now know what I am here for. As well as passing on my genes to my children the world is being built on the actions that I and all the other people living today are taking every day. Human progress is actually an accumulation of what everyone from every previous generation has done. We all build on what has gone before, so I really believe that I am actually worth something rather than being a soul who may or may not end up in a lake of fire.

Some thoughts about the church

At the same time as I was going through this I started to realise some things about the church I had been attending for about eighteen months:

If you joined and your life was not significantly transformed within six to nine months they lost interest in you.

They did not like people asking difficult questions and in group bible studies they asked people not to disagree with any of the material during the group discussion but take it up with the leaders afterwards (something that really set my alarm bells ringing, actually I laughed the first time I heard it because I thought it was a wind up).

A large number of people had drifted through the church over the years so they were used to people leaving. It seemed like a good place to be where everything worked for the people that were there, but what was happening was that of all the people who passed through the only ones that stayed were those for whom it worked. Therefore it gave the impression that it was making a difference to the lives of those who were there and that it could do the same for anyone. I call this the "filter effect".

So what was happening was that people were drifting through the church and if their lives were changed for the better they stuck in the filter and this created the group of people who made up the church.

Some side issues for Christians to consider

At the same time I was becoming very concerned about contemporary Christianity's urge to distance itself from science and discourage scientific explanations for physical effects. At a simple level mental illness has to be caused by a demon not by physiological changes in the brain. I was very concerned that I was bringin up my children in an environment where science was not trusted and they were not going to be able to acheive their full potential as contributors to society by being part of a ghetto.

To set the record straight
Just to be absolutely clear I was a soundly converted, born again, bible believing, spirit filled Christian and I was attending a Pentecostal church when all of this happened. I was not lacking in any aspect of my experience of God. If anything I was looking for facts to back up experience and found the facts to be extremely lacking once the surface was scratched.

Since I originally wrote this article I have clarified some of the issues in another article - click here to read it.

Please read this before commenting on this article
I welcome comments on my blog and generally let them all through whether negative or positive.

However, this article is my personal opinion and feelings on these issues.
I am not saying I am right and you are wrong.
I am not interested in promoting atheism or trying to destroy Christianity.
In fact if Christianity can be destroyed by one blog article then it really can't be much of a faith.
It is entirely possible that I might change my mind again at some point, but if I do it will be because I have found evidence for God, not because someone on the internet has expressed concern about the fate of my soul or argued with me about the flood or how the evolution of the eyeball.

If you still want to comment then please go ahead.


    1. A very well written and actually quite moving story when you were talking about the positive changes to your life since your deconversion.

    2. It was a lovely story to read and a reminder for myself of the things I find good in the world without god(s).

    3. I've had a similar deconversion and, likewise, find my life more positive since. I haven't really had your courage to come completely clean with my friends and family, though, as I know they still believe quite strongly. (I don't pretend I am still a Christian, I just haven't explicitly told them I'm not.) This is partly because I don't want them to think I am attacking them. I wish there was some way to really emphasise the positive aspects of atheism rather than simply attacking the (albeit many) negative aspects of organised religion. Your personal positives do just this and are my favourite part of your blog. I think they are worthy of repeating and emphasising. If you make a third blog on this issue, please make it about these!

    4. Nice article. Thanks for sharing.

      About this comment:

      "I imagine I am a bit like someone coming out of a cult..."

      Actually, you are coming out of a cult. Just because it calls itself "Christian," does not make it something more than a cult.

    5. Gordon, you said "I imagine I am a bit like someone coming out of a cult". No, it wasn't that 'it was a bit like that' but was exactly that. Mainstream religions think they are 'different' to cults but are really identical; just bigger.

      Good luck and welcome to the real world.

    6. Please take a look at website

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    7. I am not sure why you think an atheist would want to support a Christian theme park!?

    8. Gordon,

      Heartening to read a story like yours.

      There're probably a million and one other reasons not to believe in a God.

      A few I've thought about recently:

      Random disasters like the Tsunami. It didn't matter which religion you followed or, none. Your age, whether you lived a good life or bad. 250,000 people, dead. "God works in mysterious ways" is somehow so far off the mark.

      A bit facetious, but if God's so damned clever why are 7 of the 8 planets in the solar system uninhabited by life? Why build 7 planets, possibly 100 million other solar systems in our galaxy and 100 billion other galaxies, just for l'il old us?

      The earth is 4.7 billion years old. For 900 million years it was sterile. For the next billion years beyond that life was single cells much simpler than those that exist today.

      Only in the last 700 million years of Earth's history has multi-cellular plant and animal life dominated the planet.

      Humans, or our ancestors, have only been about for 0.1% of the lifetime of the planer. If God's so all powerful, either he had a lot of time to waste, was incredibly lazy, or else we are the result of 4.7 billion years of random happenings, eventually directed by biological evolution. We wouldn't exist but for a rodent that survived the time of the dinosaurs - 220 million to 65 million years ago.

      Either God made all the evidence for this up, so we doubters could be cast into hell - which seems a pretty evil trick to play - or the evidence is correct and either God likes wasting a lot of time or the religious are wasting theirs.

      The evil perpetrated in the name of "God" by religions that:

      Believe it is better for a woman raped in war to carry the resulting foetus to term.

      Believe it is better for a thousand young women to die in back-street clinics or using a coat-hanger on themselves than a single ball of cells to be terminated in a clinical procedure.

      Allow clerics to teach, in countries with low standards of education, that the use of condoms promotes the AIDs virus.

      There are almost countless other examples. And these people usually claim superior morals.

      Keep up the good thoughts!



    9. Interesting but you assume God is a life form - it ain't necessarily so. Jung might have explained God as a collective subconscious, a cultural commonality or 'goodness'. Hence God can only exist when humans have evolved to think about the purpose of life. Christians perhaps find it easier to understand goodness as an external person who controls events, or chooses not to do so.

    10. Hello Richard,
      I see your point but that version of God would not be the God of Christianity or the God described in the bible. It would in fact be a general force of goodness. Such forces do exist but they exist because they help society to work, especially a tribal society where you might only meet the same 20 or 30 people throughout your entire life. In other words there is a Darwinian explanation for people being good and it does not rquire any concept of God.

    11. I noticed Gordon,that you that you have started to ignore my comments on your various topics. I offered no abuse or anything other than debatable and reasonable points.

      I was actually planning to offer you a debate outside of your blogdom, but alas, it seems I am persona non grata.

    12. I am rather busy with other things and I am not keen on engaging with people who write this sort of thing about me.

    13. I thought it was reaonable to write about you in the same genre as you wrote about Grady McMurtry.

      People who live in glass house shouldn't throw stones.

    14. No.

      You accused me of "trying to highlight things which he believes discredit the man and therefore discredit his 'opinion' or his scientific reasoning."

      I actually highlighted his lack of scientific expertise in the areas he was making bold statements about.

      You are a prime example of why I distrust Christians so much these days. They have one way of treating friends and a different way of treating the rest of the world.

    15. Dear Gordon,
      I'm sorry to hear that you have 'left your faith', but there is hope that you will find the inexpressable joy of the faith for the first time and I say this sincerely, with no patronising whatsoever. Why do I say you can find the new life in Christ? It is because you are not the first to have been involved religiously, nor the last, to sincerely believe that you were 'in the faith', but no longer feel a part of it. There are many such people like yourself, who having been involved in religion, have now departed from it - in fact, in the UK, the number of people who have done likewise, form a significant portion of the decline in church membership/attendance. You have simply joined this number.
      There is a real difference between a person whose religious experience and practice, is confined to the person that they were born as...and the other believer, whose experience of meeting the Presence of God, which has completely changed his inner spiritual dimension, who enjoys the supreme Joy, Peace and Love, which Jesus and the NT tells us can only be known through a direct encounter with the Holy Spirit. This difference, is as old as the faith itself. You have only to read the account in the gospel of John chapter 3, or the religious person, Nicodemus, coming to Jesus in the dead of night, to ask the Rabbi, why he was so different from everyone else, since no one could do the miracles that Jesus did and Nicodemus witnessed, unless God had empowered him.
      May I offer this prayer for you, Gordon:"Father, knower of all hearts and minds, you hold our past and our future in your hands. You hold the minutes and hours of our days, until we finally close our eyes for the last time. May Gordon, behold the beauty of the Lord with his eyes and enquire in His Temple and humbling himself before you, may he receive your Love, forgiveness and your Holy Spirt, in the wonderful name of Jesus."

    16. The standard reaction to my deconversion story is to state that I obviously wasn't a Christian in the first place. Pentecostals, on the other hand, say that I had obviously not experienced God properly. Very calvinistic people quote the parable of the sower.

      The unfrtunate fact is that I was a true born again, bible believing Christian. There is no chance of me ever being one again though because I can't believe that the world is only 6,500 years old. When I became a Christian this was not part of the gospel message. In fact there was nothing in the gospel message which contradicted science, common sense or the observable world. Although it might be possible to be a Christian and not believe that, it wouldn't be proper Christianity so I don't see the point. It wouldn't make me acceptable to many Christians, even ones related to me.

    17. Dear Gordon,
      Thanks for your reply. I respect your right to choose your own way in life. Every person has the choice to do that and that is the choice offered by Christ. Thank you for explaining your thinking or 'rationale'. You made the statement, 'the unfortunate fact is that I was a true born again, Bible believing Christian', but of course as I read that, two points stick out like a 'sore thumb'! First, is that it is an absolute privilege to ever be born of the Holy Spirit (called born again, in John 3) and so this can never ever be 'unfortunate' by anyone who really knows what this is. The second point that sticks out is obvious! If you were 'true born again', then the clear implication is that you are simply backslidden, but also that if it was 'true', it is not valid now to say that it 'wasn't true'. It is not valid to say that something is true, but then 'not true'. You have made your own 'choice' of what to follow in this life and it is you that must face the responsibility and consequences of your choices, no one else.

    18. From my point of view, you must have never ever had the experience that I had in receiving Christ, because first of all, you would never, ever forget it and never, ever be able to deny what happened, because it is a permanent life change, in which your inner being is dynamically changed. Even if I wanted to change to do what you are calling, "deconversion", it would simply not be possible for me, because it would make me a liar to the Lord who loves me, as well as to myself! So anyone who would use the word 'unfortunate', has never experienced what I know being born of the Spirit, to mean. It is an absolute privilege and Joy to have this presence in your life, day to day and to know the Peace, which only Christ gives. I am glad that I have left my pre-conversion life a long way behind and would never want to return to it, with its arrogant ideas of self sufficiency, self knowledge and self centredness, all of which lead to a deluded perspective of one's self.
      Now regarding your claim that the world is 6,500 years old, there is no evidence for this, either in geological terms, or in the Bible. There is no requirement for a Christian to believe what isn't in the Bible.
      The Bible is not a 'science book' and was never intended to be. Essentially, the Bible is a book of spiritual wisdom, enveloped in poetry and history, but never a 'science book'. If I want to know about science, I go to one of my science books. If I want to know about the way a compiler works, I go to one of my Computer Science books, not the Bible. If I want to know about spiritual wisdom or the teachings of Christ, I go to the Bible.
      You said, "In fact there was nothing in the gospel message which contradicted science, common sense or the observable world" - but I can assure you that the gospel has not changed for 2000 years - the miracles of Christ recorded in them, ALL contradict science! The very nature of a miracle is that it is something that cannot be explained by science or a normal course of events. My daughter had a bad eczema condition in which her skin was constantly breaking open and bleeding. Having had no successful treatment from the doctors, she went to be prayed for healing. After prayer within days, her eczema disappeared and now some years after, she remembers where her skin was all breaking and bleeding, but which now has no trace left of the condition. My 2 yr old son, has also just been prayed for the same condition and his skin over the last few days has been clearing up, with the sores disappearing. There is no scientific explanation for these healings and they contradict science, but nevertheless, the gospels are full of such healings.
      Now, I respect your right to make your decision and as I said, I don't have to be responsible or know the consequences of your decision, it is your choice. However, that is what has happened here - you have chosen a path away from Christ, whatever your spiritual position was before. In choosing a path away from Christ, you have adopted a rationale to justify your decision - nothing unusual about that! I would point out though, that there are many people like you, who have used the same arguments you are using, yet have converted to Islam. Surprised? Well, its true. What I'm saying here is that your 'arguments' are your justification for your choice, but they are not reason to make that choice - you've simply decided you don't want to be a 'Christian', as you perceive it to be.
      As I said, there are plenty of people who have explored all the thoughts or ideas which you have mentioned and many more, fearlessly, but in the sum of things, have realised that the truth of Christ and His power, love and peace in their lives is supreme and no lesser life would every satisfy them. I wish you well for your present and future.

    19. My use of "unfortunate" meant "it is unfortunate for your argument that I definitely a Christian". Your twisting of that to attack me is typical of Christian reaction to my story.

      Also, I did not reject anything. I discovered that I no longer believed and it was a very scary place to be. By "believe" I do not mean "agree to", I mean to truly know that something is true just as I know that grass is green and the sky is blue.

      I think the reason that Christians react to my story by claiming that I could not have been a Christian in the first place is that it makes them feel personally insecure. It shouldn't. Its an account of what happened to me, not what might happen to them.

      My understanding is that in most local evangelical churches a belief that the earth is 6,500 years IS either necessary or used as an indication of the soundness of someone's conversion. Its not considered essential to salvation, but its considered that accepting it will lead to a greater reward in heaven.

      So, I could attend a liberal church, but you might not consider that a church or what they believed was the gospel?

    20. Dear Gordon,
      I'll just give one more brief response to your reply, because I think I have already made my points to you, quite adequately and you will have plenty of time to think about them. When you said "My use of "unfortunate" meant "it is unfortunate for your argument that I definitely a Christian". Your twisting of that to attack me is typical of Christian reaction to my story." - Firstly, I don't regard you as some sort of enemy and have absolutely no wish to 'attack' you, so please get that clear. My attitude to you, is to care enough for you, to point out where I think you are going wrong, but at the same time, knowing full well that you will not accept anything I say, because primarily, you have decided against the faith. Secondly, regarding your use of the word 'unfortunate', no, I say again, no one at all, who has received the communion of God in the way that I received it, will EVER describe it with the word 'unfortunate', regardless of his intended contextual meaning of the word.

    21. Therefore, your very use of the word informs me that you have not had the same experience of God as I have, but there is no need for me to contend that with you, it simply informs me of the state of your previous experience. However, I respect you as an individual, as you should have noticed by now in my previous replies to you.
      You should not assume that a Christian writing to you, wants to 'attack you' - this is another big mistake you are making. In fact, I will mirror your accusation of me, to you, by saying that your response to someone wanting to help you, is to believe that he wants to 'attack' you! It is indeed a typical response from a person who is backslidden as you are and the reason for this is in part a personal guilt on your part for having turned your back on Christ, but it is also typical because when someone turns their back on Christ, far more is taking place than simply a rational decision! You will regard your decision as being 'rational', and believe that that is all that is going on. However, you will find that your personal judgements are changing also. You may even find that some Christians who you previously regarded as 'friends', you no longer feel friendly to. Other judgements you make will be different and this includes suspicion of Christians, and believing that Christians want to condemn you or attack you. My intention is to shine a light on your actions for your own personal benefit, so that there may be hope that you can correct yourself, while you are able to. It does not affect me whatsoever, if you have made errors of judgement which co-incide with your move away from the gospel. As I said, you have made the decision and it is you that must be responsible for that decision.

    22. Now your second two paragraphs in your last reply to me, are interesting - If you find yourself Gordon in a place of 'disbelief', like Thomas in the gospel, the answer is not to run away, but to challenge the Lord, just as Thomas did, when he demanded evidence from the Lord Himself...not from his followers! Jesus provided that proof for Thomas and that is why the account is in there, but Jesus was then recorded as saying 'those who have not seen, yet believe are truly blessed'. Those who depart from Christianity in its broadest sense, do typically make demands of Christians to prove to them the truth of the gospels and God. It is in reality, an excuse from doing the real business which must be with God Himself. Hence, there are many that claim to be atheists, who then make demands on Christians to 'explain themselves' or to prove God etc. It is a diversion from the real journey that each person must make for themselves, and that is to ask God to provide evidence for them, but in an attitude of humility. If He doesn't then they have lost nothing, but they don't because they don't want to ask Him!...Why?...because they don't want to believe! curious isn't it?
      Then you said, that you think Christians feel 'personally insecure' by your story. I can't speak for others, but I'm afraid that is nothing like how I feel whatsoever. Yes, I do feel concern for you and as a Christian, I am instructed to care for my neighbour (you), but this has nothing to do with any 'personal insecurity'. Right now Gordon, I couldn't feel more secure in God. When you are fully committed to God, personal insecurities disappear and are replaced by a deep, deep sense of the peace of God. You may not have known this in your life and it may well be because you have mentioned the expression 'personal insecurity' that this is a feature of your inner feelings and you therefore think others must be feeling the same.
      Well your 'story' is a familiar one, as I said, one which many others have trod, either to wards living a life the way they think they want (as you have), or to follow Islam.
      No, your story does not affect me and will not happen to me. My faith has already been tested in considerable testing in my own life, so I am not at all personally worried by your backsliddeness. But as I said before, when you have the deep peace, love and real joy in your life, in Christ, why would anyone choose a life without it?
      As for the 6,500 years you keep mentioning to me, this is not my concern and I personally don't believe it, because the Bible does not state this at all.
      Thank you for reading my replies and I sincerely wish you well in your life and future and hope that you will reconsider for your own benefit, not mine. I think that's all I want to say on this discussion because you must decide yourself that you want Christ in your life and I'm not remotely interested in 'attacking you' or Bible bashing you. When you have decided that you have had enough of yourself, and you realise that self and other gods are not worth worshipping, then you will return to the cross of Christ to ask for his forgiveness.

    23. I did not make a decision not to believe. I realised one day that I no longer believed as I had once done.

      Interestingly I had undergone a lot of testing of my faith ten years previously and it had not been affected.

      Primarily its the problem of evidence, there just isn't enough of it and the 6,500 year thing is part of that. It was a significant issue in my loss of faith because when I became a Christian nobody mentioned it. I don't think it was a big issue back then, but gradually it became a touchstone of true belief. I just couldn't swallow it. It defied logic and evidence and it caused me to question a lot of other things and find no satisfactory answers. I did pray about it consistently for six months but got no response either from God or for anyone acting on his behalf. I also did try asking my minister at the time, but he was not that interested.

      However, these days I realise that probably I do have quite a lot of belief, but not in the fundamentalist God. If Christianity was a bit broader I could probably believe enough, but uunfortunately its a very narrow way and few are able to fit into it (or so it seems).

    24. Thanks Gordon. I think you have allowed yourself to be tripped up by an issue which you have built up on your own mind to be your own stumbling block - the 6,500 years which the Bible makes no mention of. This supposed dating is a gross error for people who are anxious to make the Bible the final authority on world history. It is no such book and does not give any indication of such a timing.
      May I suggest that you get back to the gospels and what it really means to be a follower of Christ, rather than an authority on creation, which no one is.
      I don't think there is a 'fundamentalist God' or an 'orthodox God'. My advice for what its worth would be to view your perspective of God, through the eyes of Christ, when He addressed Him as 'Father' - study the Lord's Prayer and the prayer in John 17; get an understanding of the unity of God in Christ and Christ in God, from John chapters 14 - 16. Forget 'fundamentalism' or 'orthodoxism' or any other 'isms' and absorb yourself in the real words of the gospels to get the perspective of who God is through the eyes of Christ.
      take care and best wishes.

    25. Believer,Why don,t you have a go at Muslims.try the same phraseology with the cult of Islam,which is taking over the country,Gordon by the sounds of it,according to your beliefs is in the same boat as them.Gordon is an easy target for you,he doesn't present any threat to your religion at all,and has not suggested anywhere here to you,how you should live,why not have an evangelical rant at the local mosque,where a few years ago,a wee boy was run over and killed by a muslim who was late for prayers,who ran inside the mosque,consulted
      with the iman and both of them tried to cover up the murder,why not have a go at telcos for selling you halal meat,prayed over by fundamentalist Muslims,or there child marriages,sharia law,and animal sex,a far more worrying problem than a man who by all accounts has every right to lose faith because of people like you suggesting how he should live,the mans saying he,s happy now he,s out of a cult,why don,t you who knows it all and are passionate about Christ and having had this dynamic change get out side the mosque next Friday,hand out leaflets,and preach to them about your life changing experience,I think not,you leave that to the big boys of the BNP.we,ll talk to them on your behalf,all talk.and no action.